S1.E2 - Feedback and Assessment

Mellissa Wilson: So, let's find out who's with us today. Nathan, would you like to introduce yourself and let us know. So, what, why are you with us.

Nathan Spencer: Thank you, Melissa. Yes. Hey everybody my name is Nathan Spencer and I'm a science education consult with Wayne County RESA. Historically, I've been with RESA now for three years prior to that, I was an instructional coach, both with Oxford community schools and with Detroit Public Schools. And prior to that, I was a teacher. I taught high school science is science teachers know you can teach everything from what your degree is into anything else that's in the school building. So, I have a history with that. And, you know, currently I'm working on a number of projects and working with teachers and implementing different high-quality aligned curricula doing some research around DIFFERENT BIOLOGY curricula that have been written by University researchers and that's going well working specifically with DPSCD Detroit Public Schools. And that's me in a nutshell.

Mellissa Wilson: Seemed like you’ve graded a few papers in your life.

Nathan Spencer: I'm graded a few papers in my life, I've given some feedback to students in my life I'm I've been a professional development about it for years and I'm learning from all of you and the teachers I work with daily To, to be able to be here and share the learning. I've had from them and all of you.

Mellissa Wilson: So, Ellen, you would say it's probably more than just grading papers. Tell us who are you and why are you here.

Ellen Vorenkamp: Thanks, Melissa, and good morning Nathan. Hi, my name is I'm Ellen Warren camp, and I am an assessment consultant at Wayne Risa I have been at mine Risa for 13 years and during that time. I've had the opportunity to work with all of our districts. A lot of professional Learning Communities within those districts and doing a lot of things around assessment related topics. My passion is formative assessment in the formative assessment process and helping teachers recognize that how they implement and think about assessment for learning in their classrooms can actually change the way that they teach you the way that their students learn. I am a former teacher I taught Language Arts and Social Studies at the middle school level in El Paso, Texas and Detroit, Michigan. After leaving the classroom. I did a short stint as a vice principal and then I went into…getting my doctorate, and during that time I had the opportunity to work as an adjunct and at Eastern Michigan University while I was doing that work. And from there I float into a director of quality assessment and quality instruction at a charter school management company. And from there I floated to Wayne RESA so it's been kind of a whirlwind. I had held many hats. Also, part of my job at Wayne RESA is to do a lot of work at the state level. And so, I am a board member for the Michigan Assessment Consortium. And I'm also one of the leads for the thing program from Michigan Department of Ed and fame, of course, stands for formative assessment for Michigan educators and through that work feedback and quality assessment practices and of course how grading fits into all of that is definitely in my wheelhouse. And I'm very excited to be with you here today and have some conversation around that. So, thank you.

Mellissa Wilson: So, you have some experience in this

Ellen Vorenkamp: Was just a little

Mellissa Wilson: Well, thank you. We look forward to hearing what you have to say and to help us kind of safe. So, what can we do with all of this, Jason?  Tell us about you.

Jason Siko: Hi everyone, my name is Jason Siko. I am the instructional technology consultant here at Wayne RESA and I've been here just a little over a year. So, I'm the rookie of the group here. I was a started off as a high school biology and chemistry teacher in Clarkston Michigan and after that. After earning my doctorate. I was a professor of educational technology at Grand Valley State University. And then I was Associate Professor and Director of accreditation for Madonna University's College of Education for a few years. A lot of my research interests during that time dealt with specifically K 12 online learning. I have probably over 20 peer reviewed journal articles on mostly on the topic of K 12 online learning, both locally globally, particularly like with New Zealand, as well as Canada and my own personal research interest was dealing with K 12 students’ online readiness. And so that's one of the things that we often forget about is that when we talk about K 12 online learning. What are the soft skills that are associated with online learning at the K 12 level versus adult learners. So that's my background. And that's what I think I can bring to the table here today.

Mellissa Wilson: Well, that is one of the things, right, that we're thinking about not only what does this look like if I'm face-to-face with you in a traditional setting, but now I do, I do this remotely. And so really looking forward to hearing your voice, as well as we pair, what we know about this practice and when we're learning about in a mass quick way about how to do this. Well, you know, I'm virtual remote environment. So, when we think about assessment, we think about grading, we think about feedback. All of those are normally in a conversation, unless you're with your peers. Of your, your educational field you're thinking about these synonyms in a separate way right or wrong. Truth or dare. We need to get this right. So, what can we do about figuring this out? Ellen. Let's, let's start with your, your thoughts around this one of the resources that are out there is the distance learning playbook. Fisher, Fray and Hattie three colleagues. I'm sure we'd all love to have a conversation with. But one of the things they mentioned around assessment and their module eight is assessment is assessment and they go on to say that there's nothing magical. And any tool can be used in a formative or someone of matter. It's all in the person using it. So, I guess it's the kind of magic wand that we have So Ellen. Would you agree with that is assessment just assessment or is there a magic wand, so to speak, that would help us kind of clear the air and poof song makes sense for us.

Ellen Vorenkamp: That's it. That's a great question. Melissa. So, let me see if I can unpack that a little bit. Um, when I think of assessment. I think of an umbrella. And I think of all of the things that we do in our classroom where we gather evidence So for me I like to follow the definition that Rick Stiggins puts out in terms of assessment, being a process where we're gathering information around student learning to do something with it. And what we do with it depends on whether or not we're trying to use it in a summative or a formative sense. And yes, to some extent, it depends on the user, but it also depends on the purpose and we have to be very purposeful and intentional when we start to gather evidence of student learning and call it assessment. What do we want to use it for? If we want to use it to certify student learning. And put a grade on it and say that at this point in time. This is what the student knew then that's more summative in nature and find great it, you know, call it an assessment of learning, call it summative whatever the case may be. If, on the other hand you're gathering that evidence just to figure out where the students are at and thinking about the journey of learning and trying to help them get from where they're at, to where they need to be in. You're not going to judge or certify you're just trying more to nudge. Then the purpose is different. Right. And the purpose is to give them more information. The purpose is to give them some feedback so that we can feed them forward to where we want them to be. The purpose is to give you information so that you might adjust your teaching so that they can adjust their learning so that we can keep students on that path to where they need to go. A firm believer that we spend a lot of time in our classrooms, doing a lot of assessments. You can give the kids a worksheet and you gather that evidence to see what they know around a particular topic, you do a project that's assessment, you do a quick quiz. That's a type of an assessment. But again, being very purposeful and intentional about why you're collecting it is where I think the formative piece comes in and where we would want to give the feedback. So yes, I agree with Hattie and Fisher and fry that assessment is just assessment. But I think, I think there's some planning that goes into it and that purposefulness, I can't say that word enough probably and that intentionality. Have to be foremost in a teacher's mind when they're thinking about how they're going to be using the evidence that they're collecting from that assessment.

Mellissa Wilson: So, collecting evidence…Science perhaps comes to mind or thinking about evidence for thinking about purpose. Nathan let's have you follow up with what Ellen has shared when we think about our field of science and you mentioned the beginning, perhaps a content area that isn't always the first in line. How do we really think about that, especially as we shift towards, I'm really exploratory and phenomenon-based learning? Talk to us about what does it look like when we're thinking about this work in your field.

Nathan Spencer: That a great question, thank you. Um, Yeah, that's led to follow up with here. So, If I want to start with some of the shifts. You just mentioned with science instruction over the past five years. And we're moving, we’re teachers are moving and buildings are moving and districts are moving and some important considerations are around what we call the science and engineering practices. What we expect students to be doing. In order to gain access to, to explain the phenomena or design solutions to a problem. And what's interesting is there's a there's a practice. I'll focus on right now called modeling. So, a scientific model is a is a representation of something happens in the real world. So way the students can use language diagrams, different kinds of texts in order to explain the phenomena and There's a process that's pretty well known in the scientific community, but how to go about getting students to explain using models and it is completely about Students being forwardly assessed and getting feedback from their peers and from the teacher. And so, part of the structure is students are engaged, like you mentioned, with a phenomenon. And as they do this, they sit by themselves. They, they think that they asked questions to begin to wonder. And in the course of this. One of the things, they'll do That the teachers will have them do is to think about how does this up. Was it explanatory way to think about Think about this phenomenon and students will work in small groups and they'll begin to sometimes draw out their explanation through this model. And it's a way to as you're walking around looking at the student work to You know, physically see how the students think about this. So, you get to know what the students background knowledge is If you don't want to think about at the time. You can give them immediate feedback as your as you're walking around, but the goal here isn't to give them the right answers. Goal is to give them feedback with more questions. And so, you always know I'm as the students are working what they're thinking at the time. It's a beautiful process that's all about formative feedback and it's very, very consistent. As a matter of fact, all the science practices, aside from modeling, have to do with really understanding where students are formatively. So, if I look at any of the eight science and engineering practices, even the one of asking questions, you can garner a lot more students thinking What their background knowledge is by the kinds of questions they asked around phenomenon. And so that's something we really worked to impress upon teachers and principals and in ourselves and our peers, is how do we use What students bring to the table as a way to assess where they're at and what we how we need to help them. How do we question them to move them forward to this, this next step this next piece? So, it's been a really powerful learning opportunity for me and for all science educators recently using these new tools to help us understand where kids are.

Mellissa Wilson: You mentioned you know that the hope that in this work that they're not just getting Feedback from their educator their instructor, but they're also getting feedback from students, Jason, you mentioned that this is an area that you've done. Some work in both and how do we mentally prepare students for entering into online education but thinking around, you know the power of soft skills. And so, when you think about assessment and you think about perhaps, whether it's the field of science or other kinds of areas where we're hoping that the educators able to provide feedback to the students throughout the process and the peers and supply feedback to each other. How do we do this now in a remote environment or an online. And educational environment. What does this look like, how do we really do this? So, so what? This matters. And if we can't do it virtually

Jason Siko: So, a lot of things that go on when We talk about online teaching versus teaching Is that there are certain skills that overlap and there are great, face to face, teachers, there are great online teachers, they probably flip flop very Easily. But there are some skills that are part and parcel at least have to be more emphasized with online teaching and learning. And one of those is rapport and relationship building Usually a lot of the research will indicate that one of the problems with online learning is feelings of isolation and if you've ever taken an online class. You've probably had an instructor professor who was very Involved in the course. And then you've had other online courses where you just got your grades and they weren't even participating in the discussion threads so building that rapport, which is another thing that's pointed out in distance learning playbook and terms of building positive teacher, student relationships. That is really key. The other piece, going back to the soft skills is aside from that isolation is what are the student’s beliefs about achievement and about Their ability to take risks, and I don't mean that in a sketchy sort of way. I mean that in terms of academic, risk taking. The ability to, you know, raise your hand and not feel embarrassed if you have a question. And so those are the things that as we look at how to prepare students for online learning. We have to work on those types of skills. What are their achievement beliefs and I'm not a big you know disciple of the growth versus fixed mindset, but that is kind of the overarching theme here is the fact that, what are their beliefs about Their own achievement and how they can improve their learning and performance based on those beliefs. The going back to the, the risk taking is some of the research does show that you know online learners sometimes have a benefit of time. Particularly an asynchronous environment and sometimes they need to think and absorb and process and maybe respond at a later date outside of the synchronous session. But also, you know, what are their feelings about asking if they're if they're afraid to raise their hand in a classroom. Are they afraid to unmute in a zoom meeting? And so those are some of the things that we want to kind of parse out from students. And that goes back to as Hattie and the others mentioned in module three is about building those positive student teacher relationships are building a space of comfort and a space of safe safety and security so that they don't feel Ashamed or at risk when they do have questions when they do have problems because along those same lines. Again, going back to the isolation issue. If students are at a distance and they don't see their friends and they don't see their classmates and they don't see their teacher and they don't interact Those feelings of isolation can instruct combined with some struggle will lead to, you know, regression and recession away from the course and dropping out eventually.

Mellissa Wilson: Jason you lift such good points and thinking about, you know, whether we're thinking about assessment or we're thinking about our instructional practices, which we hope. Nor are married or at least have a good relationship to each other. We need to think about first what environment. Are we setting up because, as you mentioned, sometimes we might think that, you know, students are here with their computer and so they're on devices all the time? And, and, oh, you know, they should feel even more apt to share and to do things, but you live such good points that let's not assume And let's not take away the power of being side by side or in a room with someone where you can interact in any way, perhaps, that doesn't put you so on the spot. That's mentioned as well. You mentioned that the distance million playbook and where they lift the idea that we need to create an environment where I don't feel shame. If I have errors, whether that's errors in my protocols and tools that I'm utilizing through the online platform or if I are errors in a piece of work. I've been invited to do And so when we think about assessment and we think about the importance of the whole child and being aware of the social, emotional links and influences to the feedback that we give What type of feedback would we hope this is my daughter or son that that my teacher is receiving or giving to My student is they're interacting online or maybe perhaps they're face-to- face. But what are we hoping feedback looks like? Is it the old school? I have my red pen and I'm showing you What you've done wrong in order for you to correct or should it look and feel like something different in order to build this safe environment. Where we're doing more nudging as Alan said in the beginning, unless judging I'll open it up to anyone who wants to respond. What can we do so that more kids are sharing and putting out what they think? And now, As opposed to holding him.

Ellen Vorenkamp: Can I, can I give this one to start and then Nathan, maybe you can follow up them, Jason. I think it's really very important both what Jason and Nathan have said in and you Melissa in terms of thinking about The climate that's in the classroom and the relationships that you build nobody is going to take feedback from somebody that they don't trust or that they don't respect. When you think about your own experiences and the feedback that you've received And you can think back at a time where the feedback that you were given really helped you grow and really become more proficient in whatever it is that you were doing. That's the kind of feedback that we need to give to our students. Typically, we like to think that feedback is descriptive. This is what you're doing in relation to where you need to be and this are a couple of steps. So, we like to think of it as descriptive and actionable, so it can help kids get on that path to completion and to success in terms of whatever their learning target is. If we as teachers can model this for our students. And then they can start to do it for themselves. And then they can start to do it for one another through that peer process can be very, very impactful. Feedback. If you look at all of the different strategies that we have out there in our, in our wheelhouse of things that we can do. Feedback is huge in terms of the effect size that it has on student achievement. And when you think about formative assessment. Formative assessment and the process of formative assessment is in of itself a feedback loop right so it's just so tightly embedded with the assessment process. One. One last thing I would like to say is that when we think about feedback. We don't want to always think about feedback in relation to the task and to the outcome of the task. feedback that we can give kids in terms of the processes that they're using to engage in the task can be very powerful two And feedback that we can give the students around how they're self-regulating and the behaviors that they're engaged in And if they're doing things in a timely fashion. And if they're organized and things like that can also be very impactful so Feedback can take many forms, it can be written. It can be oral you know it can be questions like, Nathan was talking about. It can be observations like Jason was mentioning I mean it's just this gamut. But I keep going back to those two words, you have to have clarity in terms of what it is you want kids to. Don't be able to do and you have to be intentional and purposeful about setting it up. So that everybody in your classroom can be successful, whether that be face to face, or whether that be virtual. So that's my two cents Nathan?

Nathan Spencer: Yeah. Thanks, Ellen and you know intention intentionality is Definitely always key in my opinion as Well, you know, you both brought up some really important points. And I'm I know in the distance learning playbook. They talk about setting norms. And other portions of this. But in terms of feedback. What better time to discuss norms? When you're discussing feedback. feedback on how we are doing as a classroom. How is their learning happening, how is our discourse occurring? The opportunity with the students to either build norms are consistently reflecting norms is itself like elementary earlier a feedback cycle. So, students feeling safe in a classroom, the ability to actually had discourse, whether that be verbal or even typing. Can be tough. If you're asking students to put something out there for their peers to read and be tough for kids. So really a great feedback cycle is consistently coming back to developing building and reflecting upon classroom norms. Also, it's, it's, you know, I'm going to get an example of a way you can get feedback in the tech world. So, for example, I mentioned earlier the practice of developing using bottles. And so, in this island environment, it's different than the face to face environment. So, in a face to face environment. Students are sitting in their small groups and their pods and they're able to work together heads together and really talk about The model and what should go here and why this works and give evidence that doesn't happen is easily online, right, because you're, you're not together maybe Also sometimes the tools that we want students use like whiteboarding tools which are amazing. However, there's always there's often at least there's often A technical issues that keep things from happening. No matter. You want them to happen. So one tool that some peers of mine who Omen county share with us is whether using both PowerPoint and Google Slides as a way to for students to Work on modeling practices and then the reason I bring this up is because you can use these is pretty basic tech tools Google Slides and PowerPoint. For students to work asynchronously. So, work independently on a modeling practices and then give each other feedback and the teacher can then get feedback on those slides. And it's really important that as we ask students to give feedback to their peers that we give them the tools that allow them to give appropriate feedback and powerful feedback because feedback shouldn't be vague. I like the way you colored that Right. And you have to make sure that they understand that our norms are always in place. So, we want to scaffold student’s ability to give feedback back on anything. So not just in modeling and science. But in mathematics and in the English Language Arts and Social Studies, we have to make sure the students have the tools necessary so giving them things such as the question stem or sentence starters are really powerful ways to allow students to give each other feedback.

Jason Siko: And so I'll kind of combine those two things together because Some of the things that Ellen mentioned regarding doesn't always have to be about the right, wrong, it can be about some of the processes and the organization's beliefs and whatnot and taking what Nathan said about You know, the technology things a lot of those soft skills involved with online learning and online learning success in K 12 students is go back to some of those things. So, depending on the research, there's multiple things out there, but there are some validated instruments that that rate online. K 12 readiness and some of the one in particular is the ESPRI that that focus is really on for things. And I mentioned one already. The academic, risk taking and whether or not they feel comfortable in doing so. But, and the achievement beliefs, as well as their beliefs on how well they Feel about their own ability to change, you know, over time, but then the other ones are organization beliefs. And that goes back to what Ellen was saying about processes and How do you organize yourself around online learning. And how do you prepare yourself for keeping track of things. Again, going back to the isolation factor that you know when you're in a classroom, you have this kind of routine when you when you're in an online classroom, particularly if it's a majority asynchronous is that you're kind of, you have to be self-regulated. And then the last one, though, is technology self-efficacy and that doesn't necessarily mean technology accurate, it means Are you if you struggle. Are you able to go somewhere for help? And I think that gets to some of what Nathan was referring to is the struggle that sometimes occurs that it's not necessarily Part of the content that they're trying to learn, but actually how they're demonstrating their, their understanding or demonstrating their knowledge and that's magnified in an online setting because we are relying on almost All technology tools to do those assessment activities and those peer review activities.

Mellissa Wilson: Events and some really important things. All of you have risk taking.

The belief that I can do this, if I can. Is there a place to reach out for help? The power of giving feedback so that I can grow net so that I can put on my shoes today. And so, when you think about all this work. Great, now this is this something that you're marking my growth on the wall and say, No, you're almost there yet, but not yet. What are we, great, especially when we think about a shift towards or inclusion of online learning? How in the world do I know what I'm grading. What I'm keeping track of what I'm not what was a good try. Let's do it again. And what was cool. Yep, let's sit down and learn how to do this. How do I know I'm so what in the world do we grade when everything is happening I computer?

Ellen Vorenkamp: I'm ready for this one. Um, I It's not an easy question. And, you know, there's so much about grading that is rooted in tradition and we all know how hard sometimes it is to break with tradition. But there are two people in addition to what Heidi and for sure and for I talk about in the distance learning playbook. There are two other people that I Go to when I think about grading and one of them is Tom guess ski and the other one is Ken O'Connor. And I recently had the opportunity to engage with both of these gentlemen through various virtual environments in Two quotes stand out to me from both of them. One is from Glasgow. He says teachers can teach without grades and students can learn without grades. However, checking is essential. And when we think about checking. We need to make sure that we are constantly have were aware of where our students are at. Do the students need to be involved in the assessment process, they need to be involved in the feedback process and they need to be involved in the grading process. And Ken O'Connor takes it one step further and he says you can learn without grades, but you can't learn without feedback. So, to me when I'm thinking about what I am going to grade it goes back to that purpose. Again, and it goes back to those two big questions am I certifying it or am I just trying to figure out where the kids are at. So, I can help them continue on. So, when I think of grading summative Put a grade on it you know if I'm giving the kids a piece of homework and Ken O'Connor would actually encourage us to stop calling it homework. He would encourage us to start calling it evidence So instead of asking the kids, where's your homework, where's your homework know where's your evidence, where's your evidence because I don't know how to help you if I don't have evidence of where you're currently at So if I'm collecting evidence and it's at a point in time where it's done, it's over. I don't expect the kids to learn anything more about it. Put a grade on it, put it in your grade book move on. But if it's the first time I've introduced something to the students. And I just want to see if they understand it and if they can practice and if That's probably more formative and, in that case, I might not put a grade on it. I would hope you wouldn't put a grade on it. And you might say, Hmm, this child needs some feedback. So, let's have some conversation. Let's have a dialogue with that child. Let's let them get with your peers and have some conversation around the norms that Nathan has talked about and let's create a process where they can actually learn from that practice and not be judged and told after one attempt that you're not good at it. So, don't try anymore.

Mellissa Wilson: So really, you're, you're lifting perhaps a shift for educators as well, or for leaders who might have a norm or expectation right now that we have so many grades and the great book.

Ellen Vorenkamp: Yes, thank you.

Mellissa Wilson: And for appearance. What do you mean I'm not getting that spelling test home every week or what do you mean your teachers and grading this? That's a big shift for everybody.

Ellen Vorenkamp: That tradition that we have to sort of breakthrough. You can do it, but you have to give to you have to give parents and students and teachers, the why, why, if we do things differently. Will it be better for the students? And sometimes we don't take the time to do that.

Mellissa Wilson: Absolutely. And what's the evidence that the way we've been doing it is working.

Nathan Spencer: It can I add in Melissa, you know, that was Well said. Ellen and I I'd put a couple more things that add on to what else I'm just saying by saying that it might also look different depending on the content area you're in and so feedback may look a bit different. Some of the tools and strategies for giving me maybe the same, the way it's done. Might look different and I really liked the idea of really talking about how the teacher shift and leadership did, shift it comes to thinking about Assessment and so there needs to be. Is there still needs to be something that parents see and that students see and the principles can see that teachers can always help students reflect on and so really thinking about in your content area and of course I speak for science here. What is it evidence that That you're constantly getting students feedback on that you can show to parents So I'll go back since there's already a modeling theme that I've thrown out here? I'll go back to the modeling piece these things can be If they're done online can be shared with parents, so they can see in view their students thinking or the students have thought and done individually and with their peers. And I think that's a pretty powerful indicator of what they're doing in the classroom. The principles can see that as well. We could use technology tools to help lift all these things out. As a matter of fact, if I think about one of the experiences I've had with the distance learning playbook. Is it throughout this book? They have small QR codes and those QR codes. You know, use your phone with you, little QR reader and a video pops up, there's no reason that that same technology can be used to share with parents, so they can use their QR Codes and their phones and they can see the students work or a video of a student Talking about what they're learning, their explanatory process or a video of the teacher, giving the students feedback, right. So, the students can use the same; the teachers can use the same thing for student feedback. So instead of it being. Oh, good job. If you're going to give some real feedback to the kids and the work they're doing, you can record yourself. via phone or via your computer and ensure the students have the chance to come back to that piece of feedback as long as they need to come back to that piece of feedback. So, it's not a one and done and it's a little more personal than written feedback as well. So, lots of ways to do this. But it's really important that we do think as a community about how assessment has to change in the classrooms. It's really, really difficult and science moving forward. If we're if we're really trying to and if I think about competency based or standards-based grading. Is going to be really difficult to move in this direction, which is a fantastic direction if we're still devoted to the ABC D. Thinking. So, in science. We need to consistently. Think about what the evidence is. They're showing us that Base explanatory it very difficult to get explanatory evidence, you're thinking about a multiple-choice test. So, there's so much to talk about with this and it all starts for science teachers we really start thinking about what is the curricular resource for using and how are they getting students to express themselves in their learning. So, there's a lot out there that that we really can help you with

Jason Siko: And I would add that there's a, you know, this does provide an opportunity. I'm not a big proponent of, oh, this is a crisis. And this is the ultimate time to transform education. I'm not a big buyer into that, but there are some insights that we can gain from this As Nathan mentioned a multiple choice test is probably not the best way to assess explanatory you know competencies In on the, on the, on the other hand, one of the things we're seeing with online environment that we're in now is a lot of people are concerned about cheating. Well in online testing if you're doing a multiple-choice test. There are ways not going to talk about them here, how you can cheat on an online multiple-choice test. It doesn't take a whole lot of genius to figure out you have multiple tabs open another computer, and so on. Or texting your friend during that time. But it's very hard to cheat on explanatory competencies, because it's just you and whoever you're recording with and So on and so forth. So, the Nathan's very correct in saying that there's a lot of tools here for, you know, recording getting that verbal feedback that audio feedback that video feedback. The nice thing about the technology in the sense that we have this way to capture it. Not only that, but archive it and curated, we do have the storage procedure. In learning management systems in google classroom in Google Drive and so on and so forth to where all this stuff is housed and then you can revisit it chronologically to see progress. And so, there's some perks here with online this, online environment that we're currently in that I think can help us address the That shift. And if we can point those things out during this time that will be it shift, no pun intended in the right direction.

Mellissa Wilson: Well, aside from giving away all the secrets to hacking and cheating, Jason. I think you've brought up an important piece. Let me think about and correct me if I'm wrong and nudge towards the power of a portfolio or being able to reflect back upon the artifacts of my work and perhaps it's another topic. Another place but We don't realize the power of that that as opposed to me giving you 1200 pieces of paper back and perhaps a few pieces of feedback in between. The power of being able to hold on to things and to collect them and curate them and really look back on the work that I've done. Perhaps that's a place in a benefit of working in an online environment as well. So, when you were thinking about the advice you've given the researchers and expertise, you've shared imagine tomorrow. I've listened to this podcast you've inspired me. You give me some food for thought. Walk and talk with me down the hall. I'm a teacher. I'm a principal I'm that and a mom or dad. Walk and talk with me. What's something that you hope I'm walking away with so that after you go down your hallway and I go down mine. I feel empowered to continue the conversation, whether it be with a group of peers or colleagues, I feel inspired and empowered to have a conversation with my leader. So that we can really start thinking or rethinking what we're doing with a bad assessment grading. Maybe it's too much, maybe it's too little often talk with me. What is that last piece of advice you would give me and who are you talking to, when you're walking and talking

Nathan Spencer: Well, that's a really good Question. And so, from my perspective. I think the conversation in some parts of the conversation going to be the same or a teacher, as they are for the principal is there for district leadership or the same time I'm going to wrap my arm around principles, a little bit differently than I would a teacher. So, for example, A teacher really needs to think about Their curriculum resource. What this is going to look like as you're moving through the day into the weeks into the year with their students. How do I do this, how do I give this feedback. How do I go about grading this? What does it look like as I'm sharing with parents? But I think my conversation with principles goes one step beyond that because there's a there's a pretty big shift when it comes to Creating practices and what parents expected when university is expected depending on your grade level. And so, to make a shift like this requires the principals to - not going to use the term buy-in - to really see that vision understand how this can work for kids. And so I think that I'm going to give advice to teachers to really dive deeply into the resource and really think about what powerful feedback is And how that helps students and not just to look at research, but also to engage with it and to ask their students about it because there's almost no more powerful feedback and ask your students. How they're learning how is helping them, etc. Really diving into their meta cognitive processes. I think it's a really important tool, but for principles. I think and for district leadership. I think beyond that we need to ask ourselves, what do we value. We already know that teachers are going to value. That this feedback process all that I've talked to do and I as a teacher did as well. And so However, when you're at that different level. , there’s different forces always aside from your students. So, what do we value as an educational community? And how do we make sure those values are forefront it as you move forward. This is a values question in the end.

Ellen Vorenkamp: Yeah, and I'm gonna pick up right there. Nathan. Because for me, it would be as we're walking down the hall. I would just deep breath, breathe, relax. Think about your own experiences. Think about what you value as a teacher and what you took on this career for this vocation, that so many of us have been called to. We know it's not about the paycheck. We know it's about what we can do for kids and think about what the outcome you want is and Do we want to continue down this path of developing point accumulators Kids who run around and sorting and classifying and creating these in norm curves that are not natural in our society, anyway. Or do we want to develop lifelong learners do we want kids who enjoy learning, who are passionate about that learning process, who Are constantly revisiting who they are and what they're doing in terms of that education that they're there. They're attaining and do we want to keep them engaged. And do we want them to be to be with us. And I think when you start to answer those questions. Things like, well, if they turn the paper in 10 minutes late. Do I really have to take 50% off or do I really have to give a grade on the first attempt at something, or can I actually just relax. And let kids learn at the speed of learning and we all know that children look at very different rates. Right. And our school system is really developed to really Help those who learn quickly succeed and we need to we need to back off from that we need to allow all kids to succeed, and we need to give all kids that time and feedback is a way of doing that and rethinking the way that we assess and the way that we grade. Can be very powerful in that in that for us. So, relax. Breathe like Nathan said, do some research. And let's yeah let's just Slow down to the speed of learning. If that makes sense.

Jason Siko: And I would kind of add to that in terms of slowing down to the speed of what we can reasonably expect for change a lot of the things that we've heard about. And in terms of, you know, making these shifts their cultural shifts and those cultural shifts, take a lot longer than a PD session on a Wednesday afternoon so you have to play the long game here for the teachers again as my other two colleagues mentioned, you know, start diving in and start trying to relax, but at the same time, realizing a lot of teachers overwhelmed right now. And so maybe…That's problematic, but it's also an opportunity to kind of bring up that you're back that one quote insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. So maybe this is the time we have to pause and say, I have to do something different for my own survival. And then for the administrators, you know, Nathan avoided the term by and I would use the term capacity building. And so, in their future. Planning in their future hiring and the questions that they asked the candidates. They're bringing in for open positions you know thoughts about those shifts and thoughts about their philosophies. Regarding education and actually having the evidence I think everyone has a teaching philosophy statement. And I think I'm pretty sure everyone says they’re a social constructivist and a lifelong learner. And so, let's kind of ask a little bit more about where's the evidence there to demonstrate that as a as a mechanism for building capacity within their staff.

Mellissa Wilson: So, when we think about the time we've shared together in many instances you the three of you have done a beautiful job of answering in different avenues. So what? And we might come back to you some of the things that you've lifted as we walk away and go our separate avenues in hallways and Internet connections. Perhaps what will think about this. Well, think about. So, what. So, what do we value? Will think about. So, what's my purpose for doing this, whether it's supplying feedback. It's assessing; it's grading, I hope that our listeners have taken some nuggets about you, you shared and really are starting to ask themselves. So, what is my evidence. What is the evidence. This needs to be done. What is the evidence that this will matter to children and they'll consider? So, what drove me here and lifted that idea of what drove you to become an educator. What drove you to become a building principal a district leader. What are your drivers and do those drivers really reflect what you believe education should look and sound and feel like, not just for my child, but for every child? And so, as we walk down our hallways and go our separate ways. Let's continue to ask ourselves. So, what, what can we do within our own sphere of control, so that we can start to make the small shifts that will eventually shift. Something for everyone. So, so what. So, what can you do? So, what can we all do together so that we really start to build an educational system that reflects what we truly believe every child should have? Thank you so much for joining us today and we look forward to the next time we can come together and ask that age old question, so what and get to the point of what we have been given and blessed with throughout the field of education.